60 Minutes: New Wave Of Mortgage Rate Adjustments Could Force More Homeowners To Default
By Scott Pelley | 19 December 2008
The Mortgage Meltdown
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"We had the greatest asset bubble in history and now that bubble is bursting. The single biggest piece of the bubble is the U.S. mortgage market and we're probably about halfway through the unwinding and bursting of the bubble," Tilson explains. "It may seem like all the carnage out there, we must be almost finished. But there's still a lot of pain to come in terms of write-downs and losses that have yet to be recognized."
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"It was data we'd never seen before and that's what made us realize, 'Holy cow, things are gonna be much worse than anyone anticipates,'" Tilson says.
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"The defaults right now are incredibly high. At unprecedented levels. And there’s no evidence that the default rate is tapering off. Those defaults almost inevitably are leading to foreclosures, and homes being auctioned, and home prices continuing to fall," Tilson explains. "What you seem to be saying is that there is a very predictable time bomb effect here?" Pelley asks.
"Exactly. I mean, you can look back at what was written in '05 and '07. You can look at the reset dates. You can look at the current default rates, and it's really very clear and predictable what's gonna happen here," Tilson says.
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"How big is the potential damage from the Alt As compared to what we just saw in the sub-primes?" Pelley asks. "Well, the sub-prime is, was approaching $1 trillion, the Alt-A is about $1 trillion. And then you have option ARMs on top of that. That's probably another $500 billion to $600 billion on top of that," Tilson says.
Asked how many of these option ARMs he imagines are going to fail, Tilson says, "Well north of 50 percent. My gut would be 70 percent of these option ARMs will default." "How do you know that?" Pelley asks.
"Well we know it based on current default rates. And this is before the reset. So people are defaulting even on the little three percent teaser interest-only rates they're being asked to pay today," Tilson says.
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"Business is just going through the roof for us. Fortunately for us, unfortunately for the poor families who are going through this," Munoz explains. "I wonder do you ever come to houses where the people are still here?" Pelley asks.
"Absolutely," Munoz says. "That's really a sad situation. I'd rather not meet the people."
Asked why not, Munoz says, "It’s not easy to come in and move a family out. It's just our job to do it for the bank. It's just the nature of what's going in the market right now."
Munoz says his company alone gets about 20 to 30 assignments per day. "And we're one of the few companies right now who are hiring. We have to hire people because the demand is so high," he tells Pelley.
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Miami real estate broker Peter Zalewski talks like a man with a lot of real estate to move. "We have 110,000 properties for sale in South Florida today, 55,000 foreclosures, 19,000 bank owned properties. Sixty-eight percent of the available inventory is in some form of distress. They need someone to clean it up."
Asked what the name of his company is, Zalewski says, "It's called Condo Vultures Realty." What does that mean? "That in times of distress, and in times of downturn, there's opportunity. And you know, vultures clean up the mess. A lot of people seem to think they kill, but they don't actually kill, they clean up," he says.
The killing, in Miami, was done by the developers back when it seemed that the party would never end. They sold hyper-inflated condos at what amounted to real estate orgies-sales parties for invited guests who were armed with option ARM and Alt-A loans. "There were red ropes outside. They had hired cameramen, and they had hired photographers to almost set the scene of a paparazzi," Zalewski remembers.
"They were hiring fake paparazzi? To make the customers feel like they were special?" Pelley asks. "They were selling a lifestyle," Zalewski says.
Asked what roles these exotic mortgages played, Zalewski says, "They were essential. They were necessary. Without the Alt A or option ARM mortgage, this boom never would've occurred."
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"They stopped checking whether the income was even real. They turned to low and no-doc loans, so-called 'liar's loans' and jokingly referred to as 'ninja loans.' No income, no job, no assets. And they were still willing to lend," Tilson says.
"But help me out here. How does that make sense for the lender? It would seem to be reckless, in the extreme," Pelley remarks.
"It was," Tilson agrees. "But the key assumption underlying the willingness to do this was that home prices would keep going up forever. And in fact, home prices nationwide had never declined since the Great Depression." [[Besides, most of the mortgages were repackaged as "asset backed securities" of one form or another, eg, CMOs, and resold to gullible lenders around the world as 'pseudo-bonds'.: normxxx]]
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Asked what she understood about the loans, Giosmas says, "Well, unfortunately, I didn't ask too many questions. I mean in the old days, I would shop around. But because of the frenzy, and I was so busy looking to buy other properties, I didn't really focus on shopping around for mortgage brokers."
"But if you're investing in real estate, you're buying multiple properties, you should be asking a lot of questions," Pelley remarks. "Why didn't you ask?" "I was busy. I was really busy looking at property all the time, all day long," she replies. She also acknowledges that she didn't read the paperwork. Now she’s losing money on every property.
"You know that there are people watching this interview who are saying, 'You know, she was just foolish. She was greedy and foolish. She was buying small apartment buildings and wasn't paying enough attention to how they were financed,'" Pelley points out. "My full-time job is I'm an acupuncturist. So, this was just a side thing," she says.
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"This next wave of defaults, which everyone agrees is inevitably going to happen, how central is that to what happens to the rest of the economy?" Pelley asks. "It's core. It's core, because housing is such an important part. We're not going to get the housing industry back on track until we clear out this garbage that's in there," Egan explains.
"That hasn't cleared out yet. We haven't seen the bottom," Pelley remarks. "It's getting worse," Egan says. "There are some statistics from the National Association of Realtors, and they track the supply of housing units on the market. And that's grown from 2.2 million units about three years ago, up to 4.5 million units earlier this year. So you have the massive supply out there of units that need to be sold."
"What with the housing supply increasing that much, what does it mean?" Pelley asks. "It means that these problems, these economic difficulties, are not going to be resolved in a short period of time. It's not gonna take six months, it's not gonna 12 months, we're looking at probably about three, four, five years, before this overhang, this supply overhang is worked through," Egan says.
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"The same craziness that occurred in the mortgage market also occurred in the commercial real estate markets. And that's taking a little longer to show. But there are gonna be big losses there. Credit cars, auto loans. You name it. So, we're still, you know, we're maybe halfway through the mortgage bubble. But we may only be in the third inning of the overall bursting of this asset bubble," Tilson says.
"Does that mean that the stock market is gonna continue plunging as we've seen the last several months?" Pelley asks. "Actually we're the most bullish we've been in 10 years of managing money. And the reason is because the stock market, for the first time I can say this, in years, has finally figured out how bad things are going to be. And the stock market is forward looking. And with U.S. stocks down nearly 50 percent from their highs, we're actually finding bargains galore. We think corporate America's on sale," Tilson says.
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Normxxx
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